Protocol In These Situations?

[Twink]

I just was wondering what everyone’s standard procedures are for these situations are. Mention if/where you’d ground, what equipment you’d use, etc.


You got a spure line going into rear property for a good mile of homes. You ground where it enters and were it exits/ends. You walk it all out and discover that both the primary and neutral are broken at a spot. You walk 12 more poles and discover another place where both phase and neutral are broke. No poles are accessible by truck. Proceed.

You come across a broken neutral, primary still in the air and energized. Broken line on main. Proceed. Broken line on spur. Proceed.

You come across a downed line still energized. It doesn’t trip anything yet the nearest switch also takes out an entire town. Proceed.

You have a broken tree limb laying across multiple phases on a main line. Phases still energized. Limb doesn’t appear to be burning or being affected in any way. (See below)

First scenario, limb can simply be lifted off. Proceed.
Second scenario, limb needs some trimming to be lifted off. Proceed.
Also, would obvious burning and minor arching effect procedure?

[wtdoor67]

I just was wondering what everyone’s standard procedures are for these situations are. Mention if/where you’d ground, what equipment you’d use, etc.


You got a spure line going into rear property for a good mile of homes. You ground where it enters and were it exits/ends. You walk it all out and discover that both the primary and neutral are broken at a spot. You walk 12 more poles and discover another place where both phase and neutral are broke. No poles are accessible by truck. Proceed.

You come across a broken neutral, primary still in the air and energized. Broken line on main. Proceed. Broken line on spur. Proceed.

You come across a downed line still energized. It doesn’t trip anything yet the nearest switch also takes out an entire town. Proceed.

You have a broken tree limb laying across multiple phases on a main line. Phases still energized. Limb doesn’t appear to be burning or being affected in any way. (See below)

First scenario, limb can simply be lifted off. Proceed.
Second scenario, limb needs some trimming to be lifted off. Proceed.
Also, would obvious burning and minor arching effect procedure?


You really don't give specific enough information to make it clear in all these cases. If your co. doesn't have instructions these then ask supervision. In the first scenario your first obligation is to follow the CYA procecures. At the minimum most would ground according to what kind of procedure they're currently using. Get help, I don't think any of them climb alone anymore.

Broken primary neutral, no biggie. If nobody is effected, then get a crew to put it back as soon as practical. I've seen those suckers lay on the ground for weeks. Used to don my rubbers, cut them high and nail them up on the pole out of reach so people wouldn't be calling in.

Downed line? 3 phase, single phase? Any hazard to public? Use common sense. Sometimes you can tag a leaning pole upright, tie it off to a tree or whatever. If not call a crew.

Limb on the line and not burning? Must be a dead limb. If it's burning, green limb. A lot can be done with a limb saw on an extendo, yeah it's kinda aggravating but some times they can be handled, either sawed into pieces or shoved off the line.

It kinda depends on common sense and knowledge of the area. Used to carry a roller stick on the truck. A floating hot primary was tagged out with the roller stick, tied to a tree, post or whatever and dealt with later.

It all depends.

[wtdoor67]

Don't be offended but you sound like at the most an apprentice. Correct?

[Twink]

Nah, I’m a lineman. All scenarios seem remarkably straight forward but are far from it.

“In the first scenario your first obligation is to follow the CYA procecures.”

The point of the post was for “your” procedures. I know my procedures. I didn’t just pull the specific number of 12 poles out of my ass for nothing.

Broken neutral can kill, broken neutral can kill with gloves. I guess you don’t see how because it’s “no biggy.”

“Downed line? 3 phase, single phase? Any hazard to public? Use common sense.”

For the sake of argument, single phase situation. Wire on ground. No danger to anyone. (I know, small town)

For all scenarios, assume you have all men and crews needed. You’re the foreman.

I’ll say it again. These situations seem like duh scenarios but all poses deeper issues. But duh scenarios are why experience linemen get killed.

[wtdoor67]

I really don't grasp the entire concept of your scenarios.

I can't ever recall a single phase "town". I'm sure one probably exists somewhere but they would be extremely rare.

If you're curious about how others handle these situations then you'll find out they're probably mostly similar to how you do it.

Rubbers killing on a broken neutral? That's a new one on me. If they won't handle a broken neutral I sure as hell don't want to be handling primary with them.

[Twink]

Actually my tiny town is single phase. We don't all live in the burbs of some city or next to a factory or store for that matter. Hell, we got a two phase town right down the road aaaaand it's not Delta. Being from a prairie state, I can forgive you for that. Get in the forested hills, and its a different story.

And I'll give you a clue about the neutral. Gloves have nothing to do with it. If I say any more, I'll give it away.

[wtdoor67]

I don't think I would define 5 or 6 houses as a town. For your information I was born and grew up in a forested area. All of Okla. does not look like I 40. Sawmills and logging were pretty prominent. Now it's Marijuana.

The smallest towns I have seen were served by 2 wire Wye primary mostly because of balance problems.

The only thing I can think of with the neutral is some kind of step potential thing that might get you but it is so rare I have never even heard of it being mentioned.

[Twink]

Actually we got 31 houses, an actual post office and a town name. So there. And I said for "arguments sake" and "I know, small town." I guess it turned into an argument anyways. We have a single phase because that's all we need and what is easier to deal with, sleeving a single phase together and maybe replacing a ridge pin, or dealing with multiple sleeves, broken arms, multiple broken glass and leadheads, alley arms, stand-offs, etc. every time a tree or limb falls? And a single phase isn't going to break a pole, wire will most likely break first. Pull door, sleeve together, throw door in. That's the beauty of single phase.

And your right, it does have to do with potential. How would you connect the two ends? Fly up there and bonk a sleeve on? Wow, that was easy, done with that? You mean you’ve never seen a neutral arch? I must be getting struck by lighting repeatedly then to bare witness to such anomalies.

And for the tree limb. A major precaution doesn’t even have to do with the tree limb but the effects of it. Might be "common sense" but a slew of linemen, foremen, and supervisors missed it, including me. All the common sense in the world doesn't matter if your sole focus is that limb. I gave that one away.

[wtdoor67]

Actually I think I've remembered a small community near where I grew up that has a post office and I'm pretty sure it's single phase. We never thought of it as a town though. It used to have a grade school many years ago but no more.

Of course the neutral will arc if it has return on it. Used to take a shotgun with a piece of wire and 2 hotclamps and jumper it out a lot of times. However we always did use our rubbers until we got it together.

The place where I went to HS has less than 200 souls there, but it does have 3 phase.

What were you referring to on the limb thing? No savvy. We never were timid about killing someone out if we needed to.





















i

[Twink]

I’ll just give that one away.



I remember it was late, all the crews had their work done, we all met up and on our way back to show-up, we had to remove a limb lying across all three phases. The wire was on a slight angle but not enough to side-tie the wire. I was in the cockpit for this job and it was my time to shine (I was still an apprentice). Everyone else was in the parking lot across the street looking on.

I was being told “yeah just go up there and pick it off” “doesn’t look like anything, we’ll go eat after this.”

Old lineman that wasn’t even on my crew pulled me aside, winked and said so what are you going to do? And I said, just pick the stick off. He said nooo. Use a shotgun to pick it off? He said nooo. Ummmm…kill everything? He said hell no! Ok, I don’t know.

Don’t you think that limb could have damaged anything else? Me - “You mean the wire up there?” Then he winks again and said to go check both poles, particularly the tie wire. So I head on down the street with a WHAT THE **** from all the other linemen (we were hungry). It was dark and this was 6a wire so these spans weren’t short! Sure enough, tie wire was snapped but phase was still on the glass. Then I realize the only thing keeping the phase from fly off the glass and into the center phase was a little twig on the limb itself. Limb fell, snapped tie wire yet kept phases apart. If I would have even bumped that branch, it would have gone phase to phase. Thing is, it didn’t even look like it would.

Now by that time in my apprenticeship, I knew to keep a watch both in front and back of me when moving phases, always check neighboring poles when moving phases, always concidered myself very safe, but that night, ALL but one man was off.

[Twink]

With the shotgun and hotline clamps, I just wanted to see how many people actually use that procedure. I was also interested in how they went about the down neutral. Did they just have two buddies put on gloves and pull the ends of the wire together on the ground then put a hoist between them? Guy in the bucket then jacks it up and one sleeve in the center and you’re done.

Or did they cut one side down, sleeve in the center, then pull it back up to the pole again for a second sleeve.

Or does their company protocol require no gloving on the ground unless properly grounded (I know, technically it is). Which then means wire is cut at pole 1 and let out a few feet in a hoist, then wire is cut at pole 2 and let down for the sleeve to be made up in the center. Wire is then pulled back up and sleeved at pole 2. And finally rope/hoist is cranked tight and sagged at pole 1 for yet another sleeve. So in the end there are three sleeves, one in the center and one at each of the poles. Guys on the ground are never in direct contact with line in air.

It is my understanding that some may see a neutral on the ground (remember primary still hot) the same as an ungrounded yet dead phase on the ground. Would you handle that phase on the ground with just gloves also? If there was a single troubleman, not only would a troubleman have to wear gloves when he cut the neutral, he'd also have to do it from the safety of his insoluted bucket to tac the remaining wire to the pole(insulated over-shoes don't count).


I'm just interested to know how everyone else goes about these situations. Correct me if I'm wrong but most are probably two sleevers here? I really don't care how you do it, I'm just comparing notes and raising some issues for discussion.

Like raising the center phase thread. Yes, a hot arm would be the safest way but I'm still sticking to my screwdriver and rope method. Risk is there, I admit, but it is a risk I'm willing to take. There's a fine line between safety and productivity. I've heard utility guys say they don't even pay attention to the time sheet. Which in turn may make them safer, I don't know. If that strokes your ego, fine. If I had all the time in the world, I'd take extra steps too. Well, us contractors are connected at the hip to the time sheet. Late work means no job. I haven't had a recorded accedent yet but my risk factor isn't zero, low but not zero.

[Boomer gone soft]

If that's what you wanted to know, then why be coy?

You didn't exactly give a lot of information and your conclusions were definitely not revolutionary.

You can't sleeve in the middle in the air, as your original scenario was "no bucket access".

The only option left is to cut one end down at a pole, sleeve it in the middle, then put a second sleeve up.

Macking out the neutral is a no-brainer. In fact, macking out the open in the primary would also be a thought, though not everyone (including me) does it.

I never handle any wire, including the neut, on the ground without gloves.

BTW, door is right. If your gloves won't handle an open neut, you probably need new gloves.

[LINCRW]

If your intent is to get specific information then ask a specific question. Your original scenario(s) was hard to follow and lacked information.

[rcdallas]

You can't sleeve in the middle in the air, as your original scenario was "no bucket access".



Ok I'll bite, keep in mind I'm still just a piss ass apprentice... :D

I have seen by taking a hoist and running it out grip on each end, start jacking it up and take a rope to hold it down, maybe put wrap or two around some nearby object, keep jacking it and sleeve it, then slowly let off on the rope... the sag likely wont be perfect but it'll be in the air.

[johnbellamy]

Ok I'll bite, keep in mind I'm still just a piss ass apprentice... :D

I have seen by taking a hoist and running it out grip on each end, start jacking it up and take a rope to hold it down, maybe put wrap or two around some nearby object, keep jacking it and sleeve it, then slowly let off on the rope... the sag likely wont be perfect but it'll be in the air.

Grasshopper, Take your handline, an extra handline shive, split your line, run your line through the extra shive, bring it back to your handline shive, one long set of blocks, you can also climb the next pole down an untie the neut, if it is low and not on a 10' 3 phase flat construction.

The extra slack will make it easier for you to make final sag, then mack it, put your hoist on, and you can get final sag. Of course always have your primary gloves on until it is macked out. Alot less strain on your hold down, then tie it back in.

[old lineman]

I just was wondering what everyone’s standard procedures are for these situations are. Mention if/where you’d ground, what equipment you’d use, etc.


You got a spure line going into rear property for a good mile of homes. You ground where it enters and were it exits/ends. You walk it all out and discover that both the primary and neutral are broken at a spot. You walk 12 more poles and discover another place where both phase and neutral are broke. No poles are accessible by truck. Proceed.

You come across a broken neutral, primary still in the air and energized. Broken line on main. Proceed. Broken line on spur. Proceed.

You come across a downed line still energized. It doesn’t trip anything yet the nearest switch also takes out an entire town. Proceed.

You have a broken tree limb laying across multiple phases on a main line. Phases still energized. Limb doesn’t appear to be burning or being affected in any way. (See below)

First scenario, limb can simply be lifted off. Proceed.
Second scenario, limb needs some trimming to be lifted off. Proceed.
Also, would obvious burning and minor arching effect procedure?

"Houston, we have a problem".
The Old Lineman

[Edge]

Better not use that hand line JB if it won't support you for a rescue it ****ed sure wont pull up a downed wire! better call for a "special rope"!!!

Edge

[johnbellamy]

Better not use that hand line JB if it won't support you for a rescue it ****ed sure wont pull up a downed wire! better call for a "special rope"!!!

Edge

Stop it , I'm gonna fuskin pass out........

[Twink]

Haha…

Now I don’t have am overwhelming slew of years in the trade or am I walking towards that retirement light, but this I can tell you. I can show up on a job site and even the thought of “proving myself” barely enters my mind, if at all. It is so second nature at this point and I have 100% confidence in my abilities.

The only question I could elaborate on more to clarify may have been #3 and I did that to the best of my ability. I also answered two, one in particular, of my own questions in what I believe to be in a very satisfactory manor. And I just threw it out there as an example of what I was looking for.

Surprise, procedures aren’t the same everywhere. I can do things with a jib in Tennessee that would put me on work suspension at home. I think what we have here are a bunch of scared boys too afraid to offer up any kind of answer for fear of being chopped down. Like talking to management, blame can’t be laid if words were never said. How do you spot the worst worker on the crew? Easy, he’s the one trying to bring everyone else down to his sub-par level. He has his arms crossed yelling stupid from the ground yet can never find his way inside a bucket?

Now maybe it’s just me or the way I look at the world, but I’d rather look stupid asking a question and do what needs to be done right instead of putting on a smile, acting like I understand everything, and then costing the company money, or worse, a life.

And I see it here on these boards, especially the laid of utility men. They get laid of and they’re frozen at the thought of working somewhere else. I mean, so what? Just go work somewhere else. No big deal. But they’re frozen at the thought of what I believe is the idea of proving themselves. I mean, they’re not in their tiny little town any more where they sported an L on their chest, cape on their back, and had the memorization of all company safety procedures and specifications down flat. Maybe working in another part of the country and getting their first “what the **** are you doing” might wake them up. “Well this is how we do it where I come from” isn’t going to cut it.

Honestly, I can’t see myself working with some of you. In fact, I can’t see any lineman worth their salt and that care for their own lives working for some of you either.

What if we’re working together and we come across a troubled area. We get out and evaluate the situation and I ask you for your opinion about how to go about the situation. What are you going to say? Raise your eyebrow and say, “Dude, you’re a lineman! You should know what to ****ing do!” Is that what you’d say? Cause I’m kind of getting that feeling here. Maybe just that hunch, sixth sense, premonition, vibe:rolleyes:

“No, you’re from ****ING 2000 miles away and I’m sure your ****ING procedures are a LITTLE different from mine. I just want to make sure we’re both on the same ****ING page so you don’t kill me and I don’t kill you. BELIEVE ME, if I disagree with you, YOU WILL ****ING KNOW!!! How about I tell you what I think we should do. Would that make you feel better if I went first? In fact, how about we just do what I tell you to do? If anything goes wrong, it’s on me. Feel better?”

How about I just answer my own questions in novel format and you all can leaf through your company’s latest safety procedures and rip my ways apart. I hear it does wonders for anyone’s ego.

You all must be raising some fine apprentices. If a lineman can’t get a response from a question, then I sure in hell know an apprentice can’t.

But hey, stupid questions. I don't know what I was thinking. Just trying to turn these boards into something other than SwampBashing Fest (seriously, no offense Swamp).

[wtdoor67]

A broken neutral on the ground is very common. If you know the source on a radial you can handle source end with some impunity. However most realize standing on the earth between the two open ends realize there could be a step potential there. Most I have seen just donned their rubbers, pulled it together with a hoist, blocks, handline or something and as soon as possible put a mack on it. After that it was considered safe to remove your rubbers. However some co's require rubbers until the wire is splice back together. However I have seen these rules violated many times.

I used to work with some dummies that routinely put them together with leather gloves. I would have on rubbers and they leather gloves. God is sometimes kind to idiots.

[johnbellamy]

I used to work with some dummies that routinely put them together with leather gloves. I would have on rubbers and they leather gloves. God is sometimes kind to idiots.

Is getting hung in series one time, they will change there practices.


69 transmission, radial feed's so all radial subs had a neut that was tied to the source, 115 steped down to 69.

Re building transmission, single pole to H structure's, re-conductering, 1/0 acsr to 336 acsr.

Had a single phase 7200 underbuild tap , transfering it to new structure's, nothin be used at the time so we could kill it and ground it to cut the phase around to new pole.

Double dead end 8' arm's, I was on the stick, a dumb stupid ape, my journryman was in the bucket, had our 1 ton chain hoists on , we sucked a bubble bring it up even on both sides, he went to cut the phase, so I was a good ape gonna control the tails so the didn't slap anybody in the face, he cut the phase wire and I became the circuit. I thought I was dead, I couldn't let go, and and the current was flowin right through my arm's right through my chest.

Arm's flailin, the journeyman was flyin over to try and knock me out of it, luckily there was a pole ground on each pole for bonding hardware, and for lightning. I hit the pole ground with the wire, and it released that hand.

Lesson learened, I knew not to open a neut, but that was the phase, but we tied it to the neut when we grounded it. Only had one set of ground's on, on the source side.

[wtdoor67]

Had a 57 KV line one time underbuilt by some 4 KV. We killed the 4 KV in order to install some solid blades on it. I grounded it and hung the arm for the switches. The foreman stood above me and decided he'd cut in some epoxilators in line to separate for the switches. He used one of those little steel cable hoists. He cut and deadended the wire in shoes on either end of the epoxilator. He was okay until he removed the grip on one side that put him in series with the grounded side and the ungrounded side which was picking up plenty induction from that 57. Talk about squealing like a pig. He began to call my name and curse. When he finally got loose, I told him if you don't keep that **** grounded it will knock your **** in the dirt. I felt no pity for him as he was a complete dumb ass.

[Edge]

Haha…

Now I don’t have am overwhelming slew of years in the trade or am I walking towards that retirement light, but this I can tell you. I can show up on a job site and even the thought of “proving myself” barely enters my mind, if at all. It is so second nature at this point and I have 100% confidence in my abilities.

The only question I could elaborate on more to clarify may have been #3 and I did that to the best of my ability. I also answered two, one in particular, of my own questions in what I believe to be in a very satisfactory manor. And I just threw it out there as an example of what I was looking for.

Surprise, procedures aren’t the same everywhere. I can do things with a jib in Tennessee that would put me on work suspension at home. I think what we have here are a bunch of scared boys too afraid to offer up any kind of answer for fear of being chopped down. Like talking to management, blame can’t be laid if words were never said. How do you spot the worst worker on the crew? Easy, he’s the one trying to bring everyone else down to his sub-par level. He has his arms crossed yelling stupid from the ground yet can never find his way inside a bucket?

Now maybe it’s just me or the way I look at the world, but I’d rather look stupid asking a question and do what needs to be done right instead of putting on a smile, acting like I understand everything, and then costing the company money, or worse, a life.

And I see it here on these boards, especially the laid of utility men. They get laid of and they’re frozen at the thought of working somewhere else. I mean, so what? Just go work somewhere else. No big deal. But they’re frozen at the thought of what I believe is the idea of proving themselves. I mean, they’re not in their tiny little town any more where they sported an L on their chest, cape on their back, and had the memorization of all company safety procedures and specifications down flat. Maybe working in another part of the country and getting their first “what the **** are you doing” might wake them up. “Well this is how we do it where I come from” isn’t going to cut it.

Honestly, I can’t see myself working with some of you. In fact, I can’t see any lineman worth their salt and that care for their own lives working for some of you either.

What if we’re working together and we come across a troubled area. We get out and evaluate the situation and I ask you for your opinion about how to go about the situation. What are you going to say? Raise your eyebrow and say, “Dude, you’re a lineman! You should know what to ****ing do!” Is that what you’d say? Cause I’m kind of getting that feeling here. Maybe just that hunch, sixth sense, premonition, vibe:rolleyes:

“No, you’re from ****ING 2000 miles away and I’m sure your ****ING procedures are a LITTLE different from mine. I just want to make sure we’re both on the same ****ING page so you don’t kill me and I don’t kill you. BELIEVE ME, if I disagree with you, YOU WILL ****ING KNOW!!! How about I tell you what I think we should do. Would that make you feel better if I went first? In fact, how about we just do what I tell you to do? If anything goes wrong, it’s on me. Feel better?”

How about I just answer my own questions in novel format and you all can leaf through your company’s latest safety procedures and rip my ways apart. I hear it does wonders for anyone’s ego.

You all must be raising some fine apprentices. If a lineman can’t get a response from a question, then I sure in hell know an apprentice can’t.

But hey, stupid questions. I don't know what I was thinking. Just trying to turn these boards into something other than SwampBashing Fest (seriously, no offense Swamp).

good deal Twink... and keep them coming.... most of us like this kinda stuff... just be aware that Wtdoor's been postin scenarios for years on this site... he's put up some pretty whako **** too... real hair pullers...
I liked you one about the limb... I try to always check the structure above and below me when ever I'm moving wire of cuttin a tree but some times I get complacent and just get that fug it attitude... that was a pretty good story...
as for a downed neutral...or downed wire in general... I usually check for open points... and even then wear my gloves for repairs or use a stick to ground or jumper... I think most of us have company rules we have to go by and that maybe why not so many have responded to you posts...
keep posting dude glad to see your interested...

and welcome to Powerlineman.com!

Edge

[lineman1010]

I just was wondering what everyone’s standard procedures are for these situations are. Mention if/where you’d ground, what equipment you’d use, etc.


You got a spure line going into rear property for a good mile of homes. You ground where it enters and were it exits/ends. You walk it all out and discover that both the primary and neutral are broken at a spot. You walk 12 more poles and discover another place where both phase and neutral are broke. No poles are accessible by truck. Proceed.

You come across a broken neutral, primary still in the air and energized. Broken line on main. Proceed. Broken line on spur. Proceed.

[B][B]You come across a downed line still energized. It doesn’t trip anything yet the nearest switch also takes out an entire town. Proceed.[

/B] You have a broken tree limb laying across multiple phases on a main line. Phases still energized. Limb doesn’t appear to be burning or being affected in any way. (See below)

First scenario, limb can simply be lifted off. Proceed.
Second scenario, limb needs some trimming to be lifted off. Proceed.
Also, would obvious burning and minor arching effect procedure?




hey twink i just wanna post a reply to your post about the downed phase that didnt kick the circuit and how to fix that with out having to kill the whole town.

go to the pole with the downed phase, you know the the other side is dead and is laying on the ground, so cut the phase that is hanging and still is hot about 2 feet from your glass make sure your tie is nice and tight install a temporay cut out at the pole sleeve it on the ground cover up your hot side keep that 2 foot tail you left out of the way, pull the dead side up to you and sag it with a hoist keeping it isolated with an apoxolator or a link stick, fuse your door with something that u know will handle the load, making sure you have no other faults down the line. throw in your door so you pick up the load through your cut out and then u can sleeve it together remove your cutout and your all set.


some people might throw a sping jumper on there using a shot gun, thats not the way i would do it.

i would use the tempoary cut out, i see no one replied to this so i wanted to

tell me how you would do this

[Meat]

If you are talking about a "3 phase" circuit then there are some problems with your fix. Also I'm not crazy about keeping customers hot necessarily when there are downed lines.Public safety and worker safety should always be priority #1. The phase layin on the ground you described obviously are not dead unless they are isolated tested and grounded. The possibility of backfeed is present unless those steps are followed. Meat!

[johnbellamy]

Single phase feed's a small town, then I have to assume your down wire would be past your small town.

Take a hot tap and put it by your insulator, use your hot cutter's to cut the wire and clear the hazzard, If you don't have any double deadend's where you could also cut a jumper with your hot cutter's or hot taps you can lift which I cannot imagine, cut a cowboy in the line by a pole, then install a cutout to de energize the line.

Make your repairs, then you can energize with your brand new cut-out, and now you have a fuse to protect the line on the other side of town.