New Generation Lineworker

[tomcat]

An article and research suggestion.

How to train a new generation lineworker.
I know I am going to be judged by what I am about to purpose. But, I do not want to stereotype all 20 somethings(men and women) into the same catagory. These young people have a vast knowledge and understanding of computers and have an endless supply of information at their finger tips and I personally would not want to match wits with them. But when it comes to linework instruction and teachings I really get tired of hearing "I Know, I Know" when in reality they don't know. I have a difficult time getting my instructions across. Linework requires what the name indicates "work" and the knowledge to perform said work.

I believe learning styles and cultures have changed dramatically and I for one, am having a difficult time bridging that gap. As a foot note I do not believe in the "Because I said so" philosophy, either. Their are reasons we do what we do and how we do it, many times the reasons are very important to the next step or application.

Last thought; Linework is dangerous, fun and rewarding, and not to be taken lightly. So any thoughts and/or ideas? Would this make a good article?

Pros----Cons.


Thanks for Listening



Question for today? To become a good listener you must remain _ _ _ _ _ _ .

Clue: You will find the answer in the word LISTEN.

[Pootnaigle]

When I see that "cause I said so" aint workin I tellem Cause I am 60 yrs plus have all my fingers and all my toes and have worked everday with some of the most dangerous stuff known to man. I have spent time in the burn ward helping a fellow with an attitude similar to yours and didnt enjoy it, so I would really appreciate it if YOU do what I ask and if it isnt too much trouble would you mind doing it the WAY I ask?
The next line is You dont hafta do it my way But If ya wanna stay here ya mite wanna consider it......

[oldfpler]

Thxs for this post I'm going thru this now and it makes me so frustrated trying to teach someone the trade and they just don't get it and what an opportunity they have.Of course management doesn't want to hear what you think of this guy they just want another body on the crew the guy doesn't even know how to use a shovel but they think he will be able to climb and handle primary. Thxs again I needed to vent god help our trade though we all know it will never be the same. Bring them home safe guys.

[500 KVA]

Remember the stories you heard when you were that young 20 something apprentice? It really sounds the same as today. The situations may be different, but the similarities are still there.

I too have fallen into the same mindset. This younger generation stuff. I hear alot about how apprentices are constantly on those cell phones at work. I have seen it too! But I just realized that the journeymen are on them just as much. Not young journeymen either!

It is the same story from every generation. Elvis and the Beatles were going to make children sex freaks and drug addicts. They were all going to go to hell in a hand basket. Thank GOD for Elvis and the Beatles! I mean the alternative is unthinkable! The sex thing aint that bad either.

But it just strikes me as funny that every older generation sees the next younger one as screw balls. You know that's what they thought of us don't you? They didn't know what to do with us either. Don't flatter yourselves by thinking that this is not true about you. It was at least when you first started.

We'll all make it through this though, just as the old timers did with us. Either that or we'll never be allowed to retire.

[bones]

Just because something has been done the same way for 40 years doesn’t mean it is right, safe, nor the best way to do it. Not when we have linemen about ready to retire clocking out on secondaries.

The fact is, not all linemen are teachers of their trade. In fact, there are a lot who just can’t bridge that gap, and probably never will. One shoe doesn’t fit all, and one teaching style doesn’t fit all. I try to adjust my style to the apprentice. It is like training dogs in a way. You get a hardheaded, alpha hounddog, you’re going to have to break out the wip to get him in line. Wip a GSP and he just totally shuts down, period.

But you train them as best you can when you have them then send them on there way. Years past and you hear through the grapevine the good and the bad and the guys he’s worked with. Then one day your paths rendezvous again and you look up at him in the bucket and it is like ballet in the air. And you think to yourself, “Where did my little F-up go? Where’s the guy that took out three services with the swipe of his boom or went phase to ground with a stray line?”

I think this generation will do just fine.

[localmotion]

right now im in training, i had started 6 weeks ago, and have another year a half to go, im in a college/hands on training style of line school, and so far, so good, the instructor are very safety conscious, we read out of our safety manuals every day, we go over work procedure, we drill climbing poles, we do tailboards while training even to go over the work being done. the instructors all have knowledge in many areas and specialized areas, we are getting a crash course in line work, and wont graduate into a journeyman position, but a 3rd year apprentice position, where as we have another year, then primary learners for x amount of time until we can prove we are trained and ready to become a 1st class/journeyman lineworker. the program has some pros/cons but mostly pros, and im proud to be apart of it. they instructors have 4 or 5 students to each, and its a 21 person class. its a little hectic but they make sure to take the time to answer any questions and to thoroughly explain the work to be involved and have so far, followed all the safety rules in our handbooks.

[learnin']

I like to hope it's all up to the individual. Some people come in and don't know which end of a shovel they're about to get hit with and some think they could do brain surgery with one.


Show up on time. (OUR time, not YOUR time!)

Show up ready to work. (hard!)

Pay attention! (you'll learn both how and how not to do things)



The thing is, this could be how a caveman learns to hunt or how an astronaut learns to land on Mars. Either way we're all still gettin' bye. Maybe a few of em go hungry though, eh?

[Bull Dog]

I trained a lot of young men that were just starting out. When I got one of those "I know" guys I just let them make some fire. Little fire is the best teacher. Now this is not primary but a few burnt pliers usually does the trick along with a little laughter. Worked for me. Hardest part was getting them to use the equipment and not struggle to get her done. Most come around just takes time. I know a few are hopeless but they are usually weeded out before we got them on a crew. Try it it works.

[PA BEN]

right now im in training, i had started 6 weeks ago, and have another year a half to go, im in a college/hands on training style of line school, and so far, so good, the instructor are very safety conscious, we read out of our safety manuals every day, we go over work procedure, we drill climbing poles, we do tailboards while training even to go over the work being done. the instructors all have knowledge in many areas and specialized areas, we are getting a crash course in line work, and wont graduate into a journeyman position, but a 3rd year apprentice position, where as we have another year, then primary learners for x amount of time until we can prove we are trained and ready to become a 1st class/journeyman lineworker. the program has some pros/cons but mostly pros, and im proud to be apart of it. they instructors have 4 or 5 students to each, and its a 21 person class. its a little hectic but they make sure to take the time to answer any questions and to thoroughly explain the work to be involved and have so far, followed all the safety rules in our handbooks.
No way in hell will you be a 3rd year apprentice without 3 years of OJT.
As far as these fast food apprentice's go, after you show them and tell them, let them fight it. Pole position, you name it. Then I say stop! Do it this way! And make them do that way, or move over here and work, after there done, I say, "now wasn't that ez'er?" Once the apprentice knows you are not out to get them, and see you know what you are doing and you can help him learn the trade. It starts to smooth out for both of you. I tell all by apprentice's that I want them to be a better Lineman then me. I also let the apprentice show me new things he has learned in Apprentice school's. After he knows what to do, I let him work without getting in there face. I say, I don't need to tell you what to do up here, you are one of the team, I'll tell you if I want you to do something. I'll fine him over on my side of the pole helping me, or doing my job. In the early days this is how he learned the trade, "here hold this, press this, pull that," but now it's time to work as a crew. Get the F--on your side of the pole before I cut your skid. "You know what to do, do it.":rolleyes:

[Edge]

No way in hell will you be a 3rd year apprentice without 3 years of OJT.
As far as these fast food apprentice's go, after you show them and tell them, let them fight it. Pole position, you name it. Then I say stop! Do it this way! And make them do that way, or move over here and work, after there done, I say, "now wasn't that ez'er?" Once the apprentice knows you are not out to get them, and see you know what you are doing and you can help him learn the trade. It starts to smooth out for both of you. I tell all by apprentice's that I want them to be a better Lineman then me. I also let the apprentice show me new things he has learned in Apprentice school's. After he knows what to do, I let him work without getting in there face. I say, I don't need to tell you what to do up here, you are one of the team, I'll tell you if I want you to do something. I'll fine him over on my side of the pole helping me, or doing my job. In the early days this is how he learned the trade, "here hold this, press this, pull that," but now it's time to work as a crew. Get the F--on your side of the pole before I cut your skid. "You know what to do, do it.":rolleyes:

WELL FUGGIN' PUT!!!

there's way to much coddling and not enuff training... it seems now that our job is not to make apes Journeymen but make boys into men first.... I'm not sure its the trade but rather society as a whole... and it trickles down to the trades that REQUIRE men to fill the gap... but mayhaps ole Swampy's right and they (whomever they may be) will bullet proof it 'nuff to nullify the ole "well if it was easy they'd have women and children doing it"

we'll see...

Fast food apes man did you ever hit that one square in the jaw...

as for me ... 'til I hang my hooks up for good?... I'll see ya in the nose bleed section... that's where the work is.

Edge

[ridgeiron]

We were all new grunts and dumb as a sack of hammers at one time. Everyone learns differently. If they are worth a salt, you will figure them out.

[MEGA81]

Some Journeymen are WAY better than others. The Lineman I work with every day, is a non stop f*%k up. When he tells me to do it "his way" I have to stop and think about it. Sometimes he's right, sometimes he's wrong. And a lot of the time I don't even know the difference! I am in my mid to late 20's and love the trade. I want to be a good hand. For myself and my union, but some of these guys are REALLY BAD lineman, and even worse teachers. I struggle with some things, and do well with other things.

[Boomer gone soft]

No way in hell will you be a 3rd year apprentice without 3 years of OJT.
As far as these fast food apprentice's go, after you show them and tell them, let them fight it. Pole position, you name it. Then I say stop! Do it this way! And make them do that way, or move over here and work, after there done, I say, "now wasn't that ez'er?" Once the apprentice knows you are not out to get them, and see you know what you are doing and you can help him learn the trade. It starts to smooth out for both of you. I tell all by apprentice's that I want them to be a better Lineman then me. I also let the apprentice show me new things he has learned in Apprentice school's. After he knows what to do, I let him work without getting in there face. I say, I don't need to tell you what to do up here, you are one of the team, I'll tell you if I want you to do something. I'll fine him over on my side of the pole helping me, or doing my job. In the early days this is how he learned the trade, "here hold this, press this, pull that," but now it's time to work as a crew. Get the F--on your side of the pole before I cut your skid. "You know what to do, do it.":rolleyes:


10-4!!

I could not agree more.

[LOCAL84]

Man is this ever a good one.....as a tramp I agree 100% with what swamp said about every once in a while getting a good one. It is so hard to reach some people....I think its even harder when you hit the road on a 2 or 3 month gig and you have a "window" to teach in. But I have learned this....some guys are in this trade for a buck! Those are usually the ones that you cant hardly tell anything too! Usually the good ones are in the trade because they love what we do....and those are the one that really do make it all worth while! I am 28 years old and have been a journeyman for almost five years.....I dont think its so much a twenties thing. I think it is just a WORLD thing......like some screwed up microwave society where people want something for nothing and they want it now!

[Roy56]

Maybe article time for the trainers. Learn to be a human being, sort through personalities. Just becuase a kid can't wire a 3 phase bank, climb a 50', and run every truck his first day, doesn't mean he won't be a good lineman.

[duckhunter]

We currently have 1 lineman and 3 apprentices under 30. The lineman and 2 of the apprentices are go-getters, smart and safe. One apprentice does not seem self motivated, but does what he is told. One of them prefers only to work overtime the week he is on-call. other than that he wants just 40 hours. 2 of them will work all they can. What is the difference? 2 of them have families to feed, 2 are single.

[grizzlybuck]

I agree with PaBen, when I was coming up, my company was just transitioning from the tie or tape up the loud mouth apes, as well as rip them a new one, to only being able to verbally abuse us, if we weren't whiney [censored]s who would run to HR.

The thing the Journeymen would do, and I did as well (before taking a trouble truck) was give advice on how to do a job, if we heard "I know" then we just let em go, and work themselves into a bind, sore feet are one of the best teachers. If the apes were receptive to advice, then we taught, if not, they learned to be receptive.

I tried to stress early on, small habits (like "a good apprentice always carries tape") and ripped ass when they f'ed up the little stuff, pointing out that it is the habits that keep us safe, and that we learn to get into habits, good and bad early on. I would also stress and try to teach them to think about, if I do this, then that will happen, actions, reactions, consequences etc.

When they started working secondaries, I always felt that a little fire was a great learning tool (one of our more respected and Elder J-men says this, just don't tell management that :mad:) and would let them get into a bind, not hurt, just in a bind. If they don't learn to respect electricity at the secondary level, then they could be seriously hurt not respecting primary.

When they were starting to work primary, I always would ask them "how are you going to do this?" If I liked the answer, here we go, if not, go over options and scenarios, actions and consequences, or just say "you're not ready" and do it yourself.

When I had young J-men on the truck who wanted to teach the ape, I'd ask, once again, how are you going to do this, if I liked the answer, I'd let them go up, if not, I went up with the ape.

If the ape was afraid of heights and electricity, he climbed all the time, and we did everything hot, jumpered out cutouts and never took outages, I told them, look sometimes we just can't have outage, so here hold this and handed them a hot mechanical head. I loved taking the 'fraidy cats up into a rubber tree. One time we set a new pole and were moving three phase, we had a double dead end, corner pole (small wire) that we cut straight through onto armless (fiberglass angle arms) construction, we had hoses (guts) and blankets as well as hoists everywhere, he was ducking and looked like a bobble head with his head moving everywhere (I was driving ;)) When we were done, I noticed him standing a little taller and straighter, made me feel good.

The toughest would be the lazy ape, some of them are hard to shame, and you'll have to work your ass off to get them to work their ass off. Do everything the cave man power and light way and work em late, is my only advice.

Bottom line guys' do your best, keep them and yourselves safe. If they aren't ready to do it, don't let them, do it yourself.

[Brad Lillie]

I was following this thread and missed this post. Great post Grizzly. I am just a wannabe, but hope to have a Jman like you to learn from one day.

Brad

[loosescrews]

i have the same problem with a young lineman. he went through college got a degree and app school. now he thinks he knows more than i do. i'll ask him questions and if i like the answer i'll say okay if not i'll do it myself.no matter what he wants to do it his way and it is always harder and he fights what he's doing so i just let him get give slap out then say do it this way and make him finish the job. best learning and teaching he could get.

[freshjive]

Everybody does linework a little bit different. As I was once told by an elder crew leader."there are many different ways to skin a cat in this job". I wish some of the older guys would understand this..What works for me may not work for them..I like to use my head more than my muscle..I like to use blocks to pull up house services..Some of the older guys don't like this, but why am I gonna fight with something when I have a way that works for me 100% of the time and looks smooth as silk..If they don't like the way I do it, then they can come up here and do it.. Beng a second class I've learned a hell of alot from a lot of seasoned vets, and I've developed my own style which works for me and is safe and I'll be ****ed if someone is gonna tell me to do it differently no matter if he does have 30 odd years in. I'm not hard headed and I listen to all suggestions, but the bottom line is I'm the one in the bucket with the live stuff all around me. I'm gonna do it my way if I feel it is safe and going to make my life and the job go easier.Some old tiomers get a kick out of seeing a second, third, or even a rookie first class struggle with something in the air. They tell them to do it a certain way to make it difficult, so they can get a chuckle and tell the guys back at the garage that the guy he was with is a sissy. Just something I don't agree with. I'm not stubborn and never claimed to be a know it all, but when I'm up there I like to make my job as easy as possible when I'm up there.

[loosescrews]

i used to have one old guy that was like that (he's retired now). i like blocks on the house end pulling up plex and will use them on the pole when i can.i've walked in these guys shoes,and try to give advise on the easiest way. but as before i'll let them go and try different ways when not putting there selves in a bad position.but if they tell me a away and it's not good i speak up and say do this one the way it's always been done. but no matter what with one guy he think's what we tell him that we're picking on him.and the bad part is he's been a grunt for 6 years and just now moved up to a lineman step, a pole linemanstep.(so what is wrong with that picture)

[Resto-master]

I am a newer journeyman and I am having a major problem with apprentices allready. Seems the hireing process is totally ruined, (do you like to work outdoors, do you like crew environments etc) and then bam you have a job. "I try to bring back the way I was treated and the Super keeps telling me you can't talk that way anymore you have to be firm but not mean, you can challenge but not insult". Seems I am finding apprentices hired out of small towns are working out better then city raised people(not 100% true but almost). :rolleyes:

I could go on and on, :(

[IRONWILL]

This is line work right?everything has to be earned? saying you are in the bucket doing the work might be part of the problem,maybe you should be doing it out of hooks? we all have to make are own way... and i know we all live in a new world,but just think about it ,being roughed up verbally is to see if you can keep your head about yourself,when things get a little rough ...there are far more ways to learn than in a book or a classroom..

[Special ED]

If they don't like the way I do it, then they can come up here and do it.. Beng a second class I've learned a hell of alot from a lot of seasoned vets, and I've developed my own style which works for me and is safe and I'll be ****ed if someone is gonna tell me to do it differently no matter if he does have 30 odd years in.

Dont know ya and you very well be a jam up hand.. But an attitude like that coming from an ape I dont care what class will find themselves kickin rocks and countin insulators on the way back to the shop on my jobs... Been a journeyman since 2004 and foreman since roughly 2006. Guess what though? I dont know it all and Im still learning along with the guys with 30 or 40- or even 50 years in the trade.. The day you meet a lineman that claims to know everything you best run for the hills cause the guy is bound to get themselves hurt or even someone else.

Theres more than one way to skin a cat yes. For you to be so standoffish and an apprentice.. Your goin bout it all wrong. If a journeyman or foreman suggests or asks or even tells you to do something a certain way don't be a ****. This is where communication skills come in.. Take a time out talk about the job and the various ways it can be completed in a safe way.. Hear everyone out and then voice your stand point if you feel it is better. And in all honesty if your up in the air doing the work your work procedures should have been covered in your tailboard anyhow it would be on my jobs atleast.

I've got an apprentice right now.. Loves the trade eager to learn but dumber than hell.. He can't remember anything.. I constantly quiz him about random stuff and hes finially starting to come around. He just turned second step and last week I'll be ****ed if he didn't bust hump get all the ground work and material made up and came and asked me "Hey boss you mind watching the handline and sending stuff up to Danny for a bit?" I was like "sure" I thought he had to run off to the rest room or something. It was dead grounded line so it was no biggie.. Well next thing ya know I hear my lineman say "Alright ya dumbass if your gonna climb up here and get in my way you might as well hang on to this for me." How many apprentices take that sort of innitative these days? Not too many. Like I said hes finally comming around. Always has pliers and tape in his pocket and when I tell or ask him to do something a certain way he does it. Cause he knows Im trying to make it easy on him while staying safe cause we all know time is money and the management hates when we take to long on a job...

[Pootnaigle]

Freshjive you may wanna rethink your position a tad. No true journeyman would ever ask you to do sumpin the hard way. Theres likely a very good reason he may suggest sumpin......... Even though yer at 2nd class you dont yet have the sperience to just do it your way each and every time. Its good that yer confident in your abilities but overconfidence can get yer ass in a major bind. Tone it down a tad and listen to what the older guys tell ya, A few years from now you may understand a lil better. You should always remember those old guys have been exactly where you are right now but you aint been where they are................ Yet.

[west coast hand]

Some of these young I know it all apps just need there asses kicked really good one time and that will stop that ****... Just fired an know it all app. If there a know it all app I just fire them usually I got no time for some kid to tell me I know they don't know **** just enough to get hurt or killed and a bunch of them top out and take a formans spot somewhere and are not even JL's yet. I think they should not even make someone a Forman tell they been topped out at least 5 years. Talk to most guys and they will tell you, you learn more in the first 5 years after you top out then you do throw your apprenticship it's a fact...

[never_forget_our_brothers]

I'm the one in the bucket

Sounds like thats the problem.

[climbsomemore]

I agree with PaBen, when I was coming up, my company was just transitioning from the tie or tape up the loud mouth apes, as well as rip them a new one, to only being able to verbally abuse us, if we weren't whiney [censored]s who would run to HR.

The thing the Journeymen would do, and I did as well (before taking a trouble truck) was give advice on how to do a job, if we heard "I know" then we just let em go, and work themselves into a bind, sore feet are one of the best teachers. If the apes were receptive to advice, then we taught, if not, they learned to be receptive.

I tried to stress early on, small habits (like "a good apprentice always carries tape") and ripped ass when they f'ed up the little stuff, pointing out that it is the habits that keep us safe, and that we learn to get into habits, good and bad early on. I would also stress and try to teach them to think about, if I do this, then that will happen, actions, reactions, consequences etc.

When they started working secondaries, I always felt that a little fire was a great learning tool (one of our more respected and Elder J-men says this, just don't tell management that :mad:) and would let them get into a bind, not hurt, just in a bind. If they don't learn to respect electricity at the secondary level, then they could be seriously hurt not respecting primary.

When they were starting to work primary, I always would ask them "how are you going to do this?" If I liked the answer, here we go, if not, go over options and scenarios, actions and consequences, or just say "you're not ready" and do it yourself.

When I had young J-men on the truck who wanted to teach the ape, I'd ask, once again, how are you going to do this, if I liked the answer, I'd let them go up, if not, I went up with the ape.

If the ape was afraid of heights and electricity, he climbed all the time, and we did everything hot, jumpered out cutouts and never took outages, I told them, look sometimes we just can't have outage, so here hold this and handed them a hot mechanical head. I loved taking the 'fraidy cats up into a rubber tree. One time we set a new pole and were moving three phase, we had a double dead end, corner pole (small wire) that we cut straight through onto armless (fiberglass angle arms) construction, we had hoses (guts) and blankets as well as hoists everywhere, he was ducking and looked like a bobble head with his head moving everywhere (I was driving ;)) When we were done, I noticed him standing a little taller and straighter, made me feel good.

The toughest would be the lazy ape, some of them are hard to shame, and you'll have to work your ass off to get them to work their ass off. Do everything the cave man power and light way and work em late, is my only advice.

Bottom line guys' do your best, keep them and yourselves safe. If they aren't ready to do it, don't let them, do it yourself.

I could not agree more.

[HighTower911]

I believe that the lifestyle and life priority difference is always a challenge. I am not that old or young but I look at the kids and think to myself "What the Hell are these kids Thinkin?" But I too remember Thinkin that I was a Hot Shot know it all. But then I got Married and Bought a house and had kids and all that **** stopped. I have Responsibilities and my ass on the line. These younger guys should eventually get a grip.

HighTower