Non-Union Issues

[wudwoker51]

Since there is a Union issue thread let's start a Non-Union issue one. A union is nothing more than a democracy in the workplace, so why not belong to one? Unity is STRENGTH

[Trampbag]

How could there possibly be a non-union thread with any consistency? They are un-organised!

[wudwoker51]

Just curious Trampbag, haven't had a lot of exposure to the non-union side of linework. I have always tried to treat the men and women who do this work with the respect that they deserve. There has to be issues on both sides of the workforce. There is one thing that the non-union is consistent at and that is gaining market share.

[Goathead]

The Mexicans and Chinese are consitent in gaining market share to,do you know why?Just a guess,maybe the sub poverty wages thier paid.You can thank Georgy for that.When are people gonna wake up and realize thier being screwed.

[shaun]

The Mexicans and Chinese are consitent in gaining market share to,do you know why?Just a guess,maybe the sub poverty wages thier paid.You can thank Georgy for that.When are people gonna wake up and realize thier being screwed.

Exactly what you said Goat!!! One better even, when are people gonna start DOIN :eek: sumthin about it? For the most part, at least on this board, we all know we're being screwed.

[wudwoker51]

I doubt that many non-union lineworkers are working for poverty level wages.The main reason for the increase in market share for the non-union is the workers willingness to work for a decent wage while ignoring the issue of benefits (healthcare, pensions etc.) They are being exploited by employers and do not understand the advantages of collective bargaining. United You Bargain, Divided You Beg!

[Stinger]

WUD, well put!! I was non-union for many years. If only someone had spoke to me of the financial benifets of being union instead of calling me a scumb bag MF'r I would have been union a lot earlier in my life. There a lot of good non-union hands out there that are as qaulified as union hands, we need to help them organize so they can obtain good working conditions and benifets that will take cae of them and their families.

[wudwoker51]

Stinger, I know there are some **** good hands working in the non-union sector of line construction and they deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. True union activists never resort to name calling or the degrading of a potential member. How do we heal old wounds caused by such conduct? I have never worked non-union but you have, any suggestions? I believe that all construction lineworkers should come together as one, for the betterment of themselves and their families.

[boogerman]

I definetly see some ups and downs with either. Don't think for a second that the union is solely responsible for the wages you receive. Any industry will pay until they get the people they need to survive in the buisness. Just think if the wage gets to cheap, do something easier that pays the same. Just a few things our union has gotten us latly is mandontory OT, no pension benifits or post retirement medical benifits for new hires, high co-pays on our medical plain. Then people wonder why unions are on the decline. Lets remember all the political donations to candidates we wouldn't vote for. Most recent the legislation to do away with the secret ballot when voting to put a union in or not. Don't take me wrong I'm not anti-union, I'm anti-corruption.

[Orgnizdlbr]

I definetly see some ups and downs with either. Don't think for a second that the union is solely responsible for the wages you receive. Any industry will pay until they get the people they need to survive in the buisness. Just think if the wage gets to cheap, do something easier that pays the same. Just a few things our union has gotten us latly is mandontory OT, no pension benifits or post retirement medical benifits for new hires, high co-pays on our medical plain. Then people wonder why unions are on the decline. Lets remember all the political donations to candidates we wouldn't vote for. Most recent the legislation to do away with the secret ballot when voting to put a union in or not. Don't take me wrong I'm not anti-union, I'm anti-corruption.

Boog, are you saying that those items the Union got you were Union proposals? I dont think so, look at the trend, its the corporations playing hardball at the table, the NLRB is basically useless when it comes to ULPs and the Corps know it. If you dont contribute in the political arena, you aint gonna have the politicos ear, the companies do it, so should we. BTW, if you are voting for labor candidates keep it up, if you're not, the reason these corps are getting away with what they are is because they have a friend in the Whitehouse.

What is your problem with the Free Choice Act?

[boogerman]

What I will offer you as far as the political arena is that you had better research the party that seems to get the majority of the money. You might think their about labor.Not that you or I can do a thing about it but you better be aware of whats going on around you with your monthly contribution.

[PA BEN]

I was a non-union linemen for 22 years at a small utility. I went to union run JATC schools. I was treated like a scab by the instructors. My third year class picture on top of the arm of a 110ft H frame was given to all the union boys and not me. I was the top in my class with my grades. I called the union in 4 years ago for help. I left two years ago for a union shop. My old linecrew is union now. To make a long story short, if the union boys pulled me aside and talked to me about the union and the good the union could bring to me and my co-workers instead of treating my like a scab, unions wouldn't have left a bad taste in my mouth. And I would have gone union a long time ago. After working at a union shop I will never go back to a non-union shop again.

[LostArt]

Interesting BEN. That's what I see. Alot of snobbery on bothsides. Especially with Union, or so it seems in these forums. I rarely tread in here due to how I don't know that much about union issues even though a few of you here have been kind enough to answer my questions in the past. THOSE are the Union guys I have respect for. But, I find that if you are a contractor you are treated like the scum of the earth, even though there have been many transmission lines built over this country by contractors.

I don't know. I guess since I'm viewing it from who I am and where the Boss is coming from, that I see the animosity that the union shows to those that aren't union more strongly.

Do all of you union guys have a strong dislike to those that aren't union? Or is it only the ones that don't post or mention a strong dislike, that I don't hear from---in this case not read from?

[boogerman]

I for one have a strict tendency to respect other lineman on the basis of how they do their job, and how much they know.Union or not we are all out here trying to make a living. Why can't we unionize all lineman? Do unions fail to get the message out or do some just choose not to organize?

[LostArt]

I for one have a strict tendency to respect other lineman on the basis of how they do their job, and how much they know.Union or not we are all out here trying to make a living. Why can't we unionize all lineman? Do unions fail to get the message out or do some just choose not to organize?

Every retailer and promotion folks get the word out and even show up at some sites, but I don't think the Boss has seen a union guy show up at their site. He is utility now, BTW.

I think the Boss thinks like you do Booger on the grounds of how to judge those by their works...whether they be union or not. He has worked for both, but I don't remember him saying anything about those union companies being so discrimitive towards him. Maybe he has, but hasn't mentioned it. I'll have to ask him.

[wudwoker51]

I' ve always tried to treat people like I would want to be treated and that way of thinking has worked for the most part. To gain respect you must first show respect. I truly believe that construction lineworkers can come together as one. Will it be easy? Hell no it won't be! Can we start to lay the foundation for achieving a dream that was started over 100 years ago by a small group of tramp lineman in St Louis, yes we can. Let us bury the hatchet and start fresh right here and right now. No more name calling just new found respect for all Americans who make a living doing construction linework.

[LostArt]

I' ve always tried to treat people like I would want to be treated and that way of thinking has worked for the most part. To gain respect you must first show respect. I truly believe that construction lineworkers can come together as one. Will it be easy? Hell no it won't be! Can we start to lay the foundation for achieving a dream that was started over 100 years ago by a small group of tramp lineman in St Louis, yes we can. Let us bury the hatchet and start fresh right here and right now. No more name calling just new found respect for all Americans who make a living doing construction linework.

Wow. You have my vote Woker! But, is it that simple? It should be. It would probably be a dream that would come true before the Democrats and the Republicans saw eye to eye. Oh yeah, the odds are more infavor. :D

[wudwoker51]

LostArt, The task of of bringing together as one, a group of over 30,000+ is in no way a simple one. And unfortunately politics is a necessary evil. I do not confess to having the answers to alot of questions but am willing to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. I am sick of the way corporations and the politicians in our great country take advantage of it's working citizens and these new players in the electric utility business are scary to say the lest. There is strength in unity and we are going to need it in order to maintain the standard of living and working conditions that those who came before us fought so hard to gain.

[PA BEN]

Interesting BEN. That's what I see. Alot of snobbery on bothsides. Especially with Union, or so it seems in these forums. I rarely tread in here due to how I don't know that much about union issues even though a few of you here have been kind enough to answer my questions in the past. THOSE are the Union guys I have respect for. But, I find that if you are a contractor you are treated like the scum of the earth, even though there have been many transmission lines built over this country by contractors.

I don't know. I guess since I'm viewing it from who I am and where the Boss is coming from, that I see the animosity that the union shows to those that aren't union more strongly.

Do all of you union guys have a strong dislike to those that aren't union? Or is it only the ones that don't post or mention a strong dislike, that I don't hear from---in this case not read from?

Contractors get a bad rap because the guys that work at the utility will be back someday for upgrades or maintenance and won’t screw them selves. A contractor might not follow the specks as close as the utility crew would. That’s good enough, we won’t see this again attitude. [Not all, but some] Example: we were called by the water crew on a water line tap. The water crew couldn’t tap the water line because the 3”, 3 phase primary conduit was laying right on the water line. The first words out of my foreman’s mouth were “dam contractors”. Our speck shows a separation between the power and water. I think a few bad apples gave the hole a bad rap.:cool:

[tolex42]

A nonunion thread is not a bad idea. It would give Union linemen an insight to their issues of concern and give us a chance to address those concerns.

Wudwker51 made a good point about the comparison of compensation between union and nonunion. In many areas there's not much difference between the wage rates but nonunion contractors have a huge advantage with the absence of paying for health insurance and pensions. Too often, especially with young nonunion line workers, the issue of benefits is ignored, of course when a linemen gets older, he sees the folly of having worked for so many years without accruing pension benefits and health insurance when he needs it most.

Unions may not be doing their job of going out and contacting and talking to nonunion linemen. Union organizing is a difficult job. Organizers often are told to f--- off and get off the job site. However, if a line worker has been called a derogatory name, chances of them later accepting unionism are slim. I have found that most nonunion linemen are just like us. They need and want a job, they love doing line work and they are afraid of change. Changing from a nonunion job to a Union job is a huge step. Union linemen should take every opportunity possible to talk to nonunion linemen and tell them of the advantages of being Union and relive them of their fears.

Think about this, if all linemen were in the Union and all employers needed to come to the Union for their manpower, what a wonderful bargaining position union linemen would have. I doubt we would then see the employers coming to the bargaining table asking for givebacks and reductions. And think about it, those who are unhappy with recent negotiations would be a lot more unhappy if there was no union at all, then the boss could ram down your throat anything he wanted to and not even ask anyone.

Instead of looking for the bad in our Union we should be looking at the good and there is awful lot of good in unions. Just look at countries that do not allow unions and see where their working-class is in relationship to the haves and have-nots.

[Stinger]

I read an article here posted by one of our brothers which was a very interesting part of our IBEW history. That being it was a lineman named Henry MILLER who founded IBEW and since then we have almost been eliminated from the picture. Every post on this subject has very valid points. The question is how would we organize a seperate union for the outside utiliy construction/maintance trades only? I know with the talent within the trade we have a vast resource pool to draw from. One of the first things we would need to do is establish our goals and objectives, rates, benifiets, pensions, safety comitties ects. Then we we have to have a IBEW version of International, then locals, which in essence would not be that difficult to do. The hardest part would be the seeling of the pacakage to leave IBEW for we we belive would be greener pastures!! This would be a good project for some of our younger brothers to tackle with the help of us older brothers. Lets face it, in order for it to happen would take a couple, three years, but I do it is doable. Then we we would be in good postion to get our non-organized brothers organized, We have a doubl edged sword to fight here. The first being how do we organize some of the the companies that do treat their employees very good with pay and benifiets. That one is in belief, fairly easy, as being non-union to union- financial benifiets, same pay for classifications, etc. The second edge is the utilities themselves. If they were faced with dealing with one union whose goal was to make sure the utilities were getting a work force whose goal was safe, quality production we would be in very good bargining postion. The tren today by utilities is to down size, increase stockholders dividens at the expense of its work force and contract out all the work. If we had one union, they could not extort us like they do to their rate payers and help. Well after all this wind, my bottom line is I think an all lineman union is feasible and can be obtained with some planning, hard work, and support by ALL our brothers in the trade, union or non-union.

[jerseyslave]

How would you address the money already paid for pensions and benefits already paid to the international? I dont see getting much cooperation from them when they see that they will lose dues and "barganing " power.

After all, the ibew has become in itself a big business .

That said, I would join a lineman only local for all the reasons you stated. Bargaining power with utilities, addressing our safety issues and pay and benefit levels.

Might take more than young bucks to set this up, gonna need lawyers and gonna need to keep lawyers.

[Trampbag]

If the linemen were to organise and were able to collectively tell the IBEW what we want with enough authority it would happen. Consider this, if the linemen spoke with one voice and the IBEW were to ignore that voice how long would it be before that collective thinking would head in an independent direction?

The only reason we don’t have a good voice at the Local or IO level is that we cannot get our collective thoughts together. We, as a trade, are in trouble because we are divisive. Some won’t do U/G, some won’t hot stick, some won’t glove, some won’t do transmission, some won’t do meter work, some won’t …

We are a collection of won’ts. I can see a day coming where there won’t be much overhead construction. When almost everything is underground cable where will linemen be????

Why would the IO listen to a bunch of won’ts?????

[wudwoker51]

There's no need to form a lineman only union, we are already members of the largest electrical union in the world. What needs to happen is an increase of involvement and communication among construction lineman across the USA and Canada. How about an annual construction lineman renedezous?( Hell it worked for mountain men) We could meet for few days somewhere in the middle of the country, discuss the issues that need to be addressed, develop a strategy to help Henry's vision become reality and maybe even swell a few brews. The narrowbacks would have no choice but to listen and address our objectives. UNITY IS STRENGTH and BROTHERHOOD IS UNITY!

["little beaver"]

Personally, I have very little complaint with the IBEW. They're just ordinary people trying to do a very difficult job. Other than Shop Steward, I wasn't interested in doing the job myself, so not fair to complain.

Most of the whiners that complained about the Union weren't willing to take it on themselves(thankfully!!)

[tolex42]

Forming a new union, for linemen, would be a foolish and very difficult task to accomplish. Instead of putting efforts into forming a new union, why not work toward making your local and the IBEW better? Usually people, with these sorts of suggestions haven't been to a union meeting in years, don't bother to vote for election of officers in their local or do much more than just pay their dues and *****. If you have better ideas, if you think you could do it better you should run for election in your local union. You should start by serving on the Examining or Executive boards or on the apprentice training committee. Get an understanding of what is required to run a local union. See how your officers work 50 and 60 hours every week for 40 hours pay.

I have been a linemen in the IBEW for many many years. Believe me linemen are better represented, have a louder voice and have accomplished more in recent years than they had for many decades previously in the IBEW. Linemen are a small minority in IBEW but at the present time there are three linemen serving on the International Executive Council. And they speak loud and clear for the linemen.

[Stinger]

That is what I lke about this site, when someone proposes an idea, or change, you get good feedback of the pro's and con. The one thing some business management in most companies lack is that trait of the lineman who is going to tell you how they see or feel about an issue without any reservation whether you like it or not. That is because this is the way we do business everyday with each other, our lives depend on it. I very rearly get offended or hurt feelings about anything said on this site, after all we are one. The old saying from boys town " he aint heavy, he is my brother" is the way I feel about all the brothers in the trade, union or non-union.

[Irishup]

One large Unoin of electrical workers does sound intriguing. Addressing the needs of one large unoin would be very difficult, what is an issue for one group in the north east would not be the same as the south west. I've been a member of a unoin for twenty one years and they have fought for and protected many good members. The real problem as I see it is involvement. Everyone says 'the union did this' or 'the union gave that' when they hear something that they dont like. Ask these people when was the last time the went to a meeting, participated in a commitie, and they cant answer. WE ARE THE UNION, IT IS AS STRONG OR AS WEAK AS WE ALLOW IT TO BE. STOP SITTING ON THE SIDE LINES, GET INVOLVED.

[lotto]

Why do we need a union hall any more?

This web site could be used to organise everyone on line. In fact, if you think about it it is already happening.

You don't need to show up at some brick and mortar building somewhere. Just log on to your local's discussion group and start participating. Make it so that it is username and password so you really do know who is who.

The internet is the answer.

When you need a lawyer go hire one. Don't need to have one sitting around.

[scammy]

our union is in conflict with lineman because the majority is power plant and call center girls ,and a miriad of others who know not what I do,I would like to see a linemans only union ...scammy

[wudwoker51]

Occasionally I like to think out of the box so here we go. Let's say that a new union was formed called the " SOUTHERN LINEWORKERS of AMERICA." Would any of you hands currently working for Pike, Elliott, Wright, Irby etc. consider membership? A union based in the south and for lineworkers only. An opportunity to get a taste of what collective bargaining is all about.

[Pootnaigle]

My guess is they wouldnt. they really dont need to because they can always walk right in to a local union and get on the books there and if there is work they will be workin with the same benefits you and I enjoy and without paying dues. And if the work slacks off they can go rite back to ratting with no penalty. wheres the down side for them in thier current situation?

[Viperexaf]

that's where the union needs to convince some of these guys that work under a white ticket to join up and start paying dues, hell they're already making the money and the benefits might as well convince em to go the rest of the way