Non-Union Workforce

[sammylu57]

How strong is the Non-Union workforce as far as dragging up what they are doing and going in to break strikes. Does anyone have any current first hand information?

LIVE LONG AND STONG BROTHERS- S.

[Bull Dog]

There aint any around here so i guess that makes them weak. Co tried to hire some and we told them aint gonna happen they backed down and hired union hands. I work up nort,

[Trampbag]

If the non-union linemen were organised enough to have a great effect on the union force they would be organised labor.

Aside from some States in the US and a Province in Canada where the governments are supporting business and enacting laws that reduce the rights of organised labor (union) workers in an attempt, often successful, to reduce labor cost (wages) the line trade is predominately union, mostly IBEW. It seems many non-union linemen who get experienced and are willing to move often go to where the wages are better and that usually spells union. That’s the reason for so many white ticket linemen in California right now.

That’s not to say if we had another Ronnie Regan movement that unions would not be in trouble again and fighting for our livelihoods. Union linemen have much more to fear from politicians than non-union hands.

[CHICAGO HAND.]

Echoes of a Broken Strike

By Charles J. Whalen
Saturday, August 5, 2006; A19



This week marks the 25th anniversary of one of the most devastating strikes in modern U.S. labor history. On Aug. 3, 1981, more than 12,000 members of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) walked off their jobs. It was not the first illegal strike by public-sector workers, but conventional means of resolving such cases failed to impress President Ronald Reagan: He discharged and permanently replaced those who would not promptly return to work. The U.S. labor movement has never recovered, and working families across the nation continue to pay the price.

In the immediate aftermath of the PATCO strike, many observers reported that Reagan's action marked a turning point in U.S. labor relations.

History has shown this assessment was right on the mark. If it is true that the strike is labor's "only true weapon," as some unionists suggest, then practically the entire movement has been disarmed. This also indicates that the legal right of workers to organize and bargain collectively has little real meaning.

In 2005 American labor disputes led to 22 major work stoppages, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. From the end of World War II until 1981, the annual number was about 10 times that -- and sometimes much higher. A major reason for the sharp decline: Reagan's headline-grabbing dismissal of PATCO workers emboldened employers across the nation. Overnight, it became legitimate to threaten striking employees with permanent replacement.

Private-sector companies have had the right to permanently replace workers during bargaining disputes since 1938. Until 1981 few employers took advantage of this option. In the 1950s and 1960s, for example, there was only one documented use of permanent replacements for about every 80 major work stoppages, according to a calculation by Joseph A. McCartin of Georgetown University. In the first 10 years after 1981, however, there was one documented use of permanent replacements for every seven work stoppages.

In the wake of Reagan's action against PATCO, a number of unionized firms demanded major concessions and threatened permanent replacement as the alternative. Many unorganized workers quickly got the message, and employers have often driven home the point during organizing drives. The result has been downward pressure on workers' wages.

There are also more visible costs. The use of permanent replacements during a 1987-88 strike against International Paper by its union in Jay, Maine, "tore the community apart," according to research by Julius Getman of the University of Texas law school. After the strike was broken, some union members returned to work alongside their replacements, and even years later, area residents on all sides of the dispute felt surrounded by hatred and bitterness at work and in the community. Getman reports that eventually even the company's chief executive concluded that replacing strikers "was a major mistake that cost the company more than a billion dollars."

The labor movement has, of course, taken the biggest hit. In 2005, 12.5 percent of U.S. workers were union members, according to the Labor Department. In 1983, the first year for which comparable data are available, the membership rate was 20.1 percent.

Through the International Labor Organization (ILO), governments around the world have declared that the right to strike is part of the freedom of association. In short, it is a human right. The ILO has also found that the U.S. permanent-replacement doctrine undermines that right.

In the 1990s, efforts to outlaw the use of permanent replacements were defeated by opponents who painted the bill as "special interest" legislation. Yet, just as labor's gains long benefited many more than those who were unionized, labor's losses since the early 1980s have adversely affected a much larger share of the workforce than that belonging to unions.

Labor watchers knew the PATCO episode was a watershed, but it's unlikely that even the most pessimistic witnesses expected it would cast such a long, dark shadow.

The writer is a labor-market economist and editor of Perspectives on Work, a journal published by the Labor and Employment Relations Association.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

[Trampbag]

Ronnie Regan (USA), Margaret Thatcher (UK) and Brian Mulroney (Canada) - enemies of union labor. Workers, union or otherwise, can be sure your wages have been seriously affected by this trio.

Next time you walk down the street and see the army of homeless you can thank these three for all the misery suffered by these people as well. I read a statistic at Christmas 2005 in our church bulletin that homelessness was increased from around 100,000 to over 1,000,000 in the USA during the first 2 years of Ronnie Regan’s Presidency. The number of homelessness in the UK, particularly London, in 1987 was astonishing. Cardboard boxes by the thousands appeared around some of the train stations around 9PM and were “moved on” early in the morning by a “friendly” rapping on the box homes by police. Couldn’t have the sensibilities of the commuters upset now, could we?

Regan, Thatcher and Mulroney are long gone, thank goodness, but the homeless have continued to increase.

Interestingly as unions continued to loose strength throughout the ‘80’s and ‘90’s and into the 21st century the homeless problem continues to increase.

Maybe we can find a few politicians to become permanent replacement homeless.

[murph1]

you guys are right on the money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! keep it up!!!!!!!!!! murph

[Oregon Lineman]

Being non union means that if you are told to go try break a strike you probably go, That is if you want to keep your job. Of course if we were all organized then the companies would have to deal with us all fairly. Because there would be no one to call to break a strike. They would have to try and break it with their ratty management personel. Which most of them have no idea what it is we do for a living

[lineman-up]

i am non-union and would never cross any line or take food off any other working mans table. there is some real pieces of crap both union and non-union. a couple of years ago i went to a job interview at a place where the lineman were on strike ( not knowing they were on strike) well i should say i drove 3 hours to the place, where a striker spit on me. i called the guy that set up the interview and told him i would be interested in the job once the strike was over. but that i thought it was pretty crappy to even call me and not inform me of the situation, about as crappy as that puke that spit on me. does the union hand out these blinders or just brain-wash this crap into peoples heads. you never hear much about non-union guys bashing union guys, but union guys seem to think they are real superior for some reason.

[Pootnaigle]

you never hear much about non-union guys bashing union guys, but union guys seem to think they are real superior for some reason.
__________________
No not superior maybe smarter........ You would be welcomed by most any union to join and you would enjoy benefits and comoraderie .You would also come to understand that non union guys actually drive the wage rate down.I spect thats what you mistakenly think of as bashing. As far as skills go , Ive seen em on both sides couldnt rope their ass with both hands and likewise some were a pleasure to watch work ,smooth as silk. Stop and think about it ..... wouldnt it be way easier to deaL with individuals than a collective bargaining agreement. Dont like a guy runnem off kinda thang. Unions are for the benefit of ALL members. They set standards and expect journeymen to comply with em( do all of em live up to em?.. nope) but neither do all non union Journeymen. If your boss told you to do something that was unsafe or hit the road who would back you if you refused? I can answer that if your union. And if your not I spect you have a tough an unecessary decision to make

[Stick-it]

VERY well said!!!

[Electriceel]

I have thought this union-non union bull**** over in my head many times.
Not superior, maybe smarter. I will argue that in some cases.
Got both sides to work with, union supports their members no matter what maybe before you support your own make sure they did not cause the problem, all you do there is make them think they are superior no matter what. Getting tired of the whining around the shop, if it is that bad a place to work get the hell out and leave the ones alone that are doing their job safely and enjoy coming to work.
Open mouth insert foot, you said you would support them no matter what. Think about that, a union member does not follow safety rules you just said you were going to support them. That is wrong.
I could ramble on and on, but basically no matter what member or not if you screw up you deserve the punishment.

[CHICAGO HAND.]

I say we find the guy that spit on you and take him out behind the lugger.
What i would want to do is show you why being union is better for all of us in this trade rather than spit on you and have no chance of bringing you into the brotherhood.
I have never been on the picket line but when we pull up on a job sight that is being picketed we turn around and leave and the business gets no power from the union boys.
Our company has sent management out to cross the line and do my work thouugh, pretty funny to watch that try to get done.
And they have also tried to send us out there on a day when the job sight was closed such as on the weekend but that does'nt work to well when you get the picketers numbers and tell them that you are scheduled to come to the job sight.Then they get there and set up at the entrance before you arrive and nothing gets done again for the day.
Sorry about the guy spitting on you dude just do me a favor and dont judge the whole brotherhood by that guy.
Stay safe.

[lineman-up]

i have stated many times that i wish i were union and i definetly understand the benefits of the union. unfortunately because of dip****s like the spitter, many of the guys i work have a bitter taste about unions and wil not hear of joining even though we are at about 2/3 of union scale right now.

"You would also come to understand that non union guys actually drive the wage rate down."


if ya actually think about it why would someone not want higher wages? the correct answer is that something has happened so they would rather take a lesser wage than be associtated with any group even if they are "smarter". i guess this is all in how you look at it i understand both sides of the fence. i would try to organize my utility except it is full of union haters!! i have never looked down my nose at union guys, i judge a lineman by his ability and personality not the card in his pocket. so in my opinion that may not make me as smart but twice the man you are!!!!!!!:confused:

[Pootnaigle]

Ok I was purposefully very careful not to brag or bash.Reason for that is I'd rather have you as a brother in the union.than workin Rat and hurting us all.But your a better man than i am because you judge others????? I dont think so.....
Every man in this or any other trade is working for one reason.. he needs the money!And every one of us will sooner or later hafta retire and live on what we have managed to save or our pensions. Now ask yourself if that contractor that pays you 2/3 union scale is gonna contribute to that. Od Maybe ask yourself about medical benefits who pays for em? And if you do ( even if its only a portion)Dont you think its reasonable to assume that better coverage for less money would be available to a much larger group such as the IBEW? I mean even with as many rat contractors as there are they havent formed an alliance to bargain for your benefits.Each and ever one of bargain seperately.
I am truely sorry that you have such a hatred for unions and the men that need em to enjoy a better standard of living.
'

[lineman-up]

first off i work for a utility.( in other words i am a state employee, as dumb as it sounds) now i think you have taken it out of context. i am not a union hater!!!!!!! i understand the training difference between union and non-union. if you are non-union you have to a appreniceship on your own. such as i have with no finacial benefit to myself, i have also learned how to do metering because of the fact that noone else knows any of the basics of electricty. most of the lineman i work with started on the garbage truck or worked on cable tv. i do not know how this qualifies them to be lineman but some how the utility allows them to do it. i just get frustrated by being cut down constantly by union guys. i have worked very hard to not be a non-union, non-trained lineman. putting all non-union workers in one category is the same as putting all union workers in the same category.

secon: no i dont pay anything for health insurance, i get three weeks of vacation a year, twelve sick days, thirteen paid holidays and one floating holiday. we can also borrow any of the equipment from the shop or use the shop on the weekends to work on our own stuff. my hours are 7am to 3:30 pm. i take call every three weeks for 24 hours of overtime, all call ins are 2 hour minimum at time and a half. if it rains we stay inside, if it is cold we stay inside. it is not a bad job the wages are just not there. it is putting my girlfriend through college and has bought me a nice house on some acreage. so poot i understand your point, i would love to be union because of the nut busting that union guys have done the the non-union guys i work with it wont happen for a few years. but i know that i know my **** regardless of where i work, i am sure you would like having me on your crew and any other guy that actully went to line school and could climb a pole with me would be a step up from what i have now!!! i am not a union hater i just wont be looked down on because i cant be union!!!

[Pootnaigle]

Linemanup............. trust me I never intended to look down on you.I am merely preaching the benefits of being union and the consequences of not being.As a union lineman you have acess to much better training and the guys from a garbage truck kinda fall by the wayside if they aint got the makins of a lineman, and if they do then they will also benefit from superior training .Linework aint fer everbody it kinda takes a calling.But when you can say yer a journeyman trained by the IBEW you can run with the big dogs no matter where you go.

[Oregon Lineman]

Sometime guys will tell people they do not like unions because of something that a union member has done to them. This does happen. But having worked both side I found that most anti-union guys do not like them because they cannot see the reason for supportting others, cannot see the good of the whole unit or spend the money for dues. Now there are lots of union guys that way also, but I seen more on the non-union side. Hell I have been burned by the unioin as bad as the non-union employer. Thats what I get for trying to organize for the union at one time, but I still prefer the union side. At least with the contract they just cannot change thing on a whim. Some employer that are non-union will match or maybe even do a little better on things just to keep the union out. Then management changes and it can be gone. Work safe and keep the brotherhood strong

[lineman-up]

union workers are superior to non-union workers because of the training we receive. now i am not saying that non union workers don’t work hard and that there are not good non union lineman, but for the most part union workers are smarter and much better trained. also union companies have better tools and equipment.:confused:

nate42: yea you sound a hell of a lot smarter, looks like a 12 year old wrote that post. if i wasnt having a constructive conversation with poot i would tear into you but he has already apologized for idiots like you in the union!!!!

any how poot, i would beg to differ on the ibew journeyman running with the big dogs anywhere. a couple of years ago we had a union contractor in here to do some work i was in charge of them and was working hand in hand with them and frankly enjoying working with some good lineman and apprentices. at one point we were on break and this fata$$ that looked like he ate the big dog began giving me crap about being a rat, so i loudly and very closely informed him that this was not a union jobsite and that we were paying his check, i even offerd to help him leave by kicking him in the balls until he was clear of the property line. once the foreman had pulled him aside and told him to shut his mouth i found out he was a journeyman lineman that barely does any line-work( he is to fat to get in the bucket) i am not tearing the union down just trying to give a little reality check, there are just as many dumbasses in the union as ther are non-union. (nate42 for example, just smart enough to not drool on himself)


oregon lineman i have stated many times i want to be union, my only argument is that that union card doesnt make you a better lineman than me. i will grab a set of hooks and go to work with any lineman and hold my own!!!! i am not as good as some but still better than most!!

[lineman-up]

i have been thinking about this all day. and just keep getting more pissed. nate42: what kind of education do you have that makes you so much smarter i hope it aint that union card?

i have a two year aas degree in powerline technology (3.8 gpa)
i have completed a mrea 4-year apprenticship resulting in a "journeyman card"
it does happen to be the same as many of your union brothers here in minnesota
i go to hotline school twice a year , for three days to learn new ways and to shoot the **** with other lineman

i am a member of the upper midwest metering association


i am just curious what makes you so fu##king smart i hope your not going to say that union card or i bet the rest of your brothers will want to choke you for making them look stupid too

by the way i have top of the line tools right down to the 15000$ laptop with gps and the gis map of all utilties in the city i work for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anythig else or can i carry on my intelligent conversation with poot

[Orgnizdlbr]

i have been thinking about this all day. and just keep getting more pissed. nate42: what kind of education do you have that makes you so much smarter i hope it aint that union card?

i have a two year aas degree in powerline technology (3.8 gpa)
i have completed a mrea 4-year apprenticship resulting in a "journeyman card"
it does happen to be the same as many of your union brothers here in minnesota
i go to hotline school twice a year , for three days to learn new ways and to shoot the **** with other lineman

i am a member of the upper midwest metering association


i am just curious what makes you so fu##king smart i hope your not going to say that union card or i bet the rest of your brothers will want to choke you for making them look stupid too

by the way i have top of the line tools right down to the 15000$ laptop with gps and the gis map of all utilties in the city i work for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anythig else or can i carry on my intelligent conversation with poot

LU, dont lose your cool over what people can annonomously post here, it aint worth it. I am a 35 years IBEW member, suffice it to say, I wish you were an IBEW member also. You have a passion for the trade, and as an individual, you would be a great addition to an IBEW local union......

[scammy]

it is called gunshots and cops ,,a while back ,,in the getto,,,here in dayton ohio ,,we came under attack,,buy thugs shooting guns at us because thier lights were out ,,we were working with contractors ,,,,we called the cops ,,and they wouldent come ,,we called our supers and they said ,,jacks up and get out,,,we ended up abandoning a very expensive underground rigg,, and told the contractors to get out too,,,the leader linmane of the contractors said to me ,,,we cant leave you here alone,,,,with that said ,,,it said it all to me ,,,we are what we are ,,,,,,,,,,,,,lineman,,,,scammy

[lineman-up]

well stated scammy, thanks

[Oregon Lineman]

To Linemanup I have read my post a couple times and I cannot find anything or anywhere I said that Union lineman are better than Non-union Lineman. If you read it and understood what I was trying to say is there is good and bad on both side. I just prefer working the Union Side. Please do not put word down that I did not say. Thank you

[phillip63]

I know for a fact that there is is misinformation on both sides, on the hurricanes in Florida, i seen pleanty of union hands say to hell with and screw the scabs , it just showed there ignorance, they do not know the meaning of those words,and were street light lineman out of LU 9 in Chicago,
dont even know what it takes to be linemen, i know plenty of hands on both sides and at both ends of the skill spectrum, i wish somebody real had set me down and told me what the UNION was about ten years ago
it's not what we know but how we treat the other person would you want to be around someone that thinks youre a piece of ****?, i think not.
if we want to increase our UNION presance we have to win there hearts and minds.

[lineman-up]

right on the nutz phillip63. i wish it could start with the guys i work with(notice i didnt call them lineman, that would command my respect) so i could enjoy the benefits and pride involved in being union!!

[rat1369]

I started linework in FL with prick(pike) electric. new trucks tools on every truck. worked for red simpson mastec and ulcs along the way. Didn't have issues with equipment or tools until I joined the the Union (222). Have worked for Bsj in Fl. Decided that I had to leave Fl. The 222 contract put us $4 less than I was making at ULCS. Currently working in Gary,IN with H&M. Still deal with the BS with equipment and tools, however the quality of my personal life has never been better. I would rather work with **** and enjoy my time off than have immaculate equipment and not enjoy my life. One thing most of the non-union lineman don't realize is we bargained as a group most of the time. When prick electric bought Red Simpson, those of us that did not want to work for pike told the area supv we were leaving. The pay went from $22 to$24 overnight. 1 week later we talked to Mastec and they raised their wages to $24, paid 200/wk per diem and paid for the hotels. Unless you work alone there is always some collective bargaining going on. Why not be part of a huge group that knows how to instead of in little chunks that the companies can easily live without

[billfoster67]

Non union what are your rights. I went to the NLRB, they don't service you- you have to be a discriminated ethnic group to file a complaint. Your state boards of labor don't give a crap about you. You have nothing. What happens when your rotator cuff is ripped or you wake up and crawl in the morning to take a piss, you ll have nothing but a lot of forms. I ll have some buds that drop an envelope off full of cash, to give me some time to heal up. Like I have done to others.

I am union, and some halls are just fricking employment agencies, and I know the bad part of the country. And I will keep and dispatch info of piss poor halls to others to warn them, you might as well be applying at Snelling and Snelling.

But if you read our constitution, our history... you will understand why bering union is a lot better than being non union. Union and the locals are not perfect by a long shot. But if you have a president and manager that has read his own by-laws, read his own constitution, knows his jurisdiction... very few know- and its sad. But the ones, business managers, that don't have a complex and love their members. Which I have met many are worth their weight in Gold. You'll have great working conditions, enforced by a hands on e-board. Great meetings. And a great area.

I have been to a lot of union meetings. If you have a chance to go to one, someday go to LU 71 or 53 in KC. When I go to those meetings I get shivers seeing the place packed, and having real issues resolved, knowing if your buddy got hurt, and passing the hat.

You guys that are non union will never know that feeling. Yeah the crew can click and the work will get done, but when you are on the down and out, your back is killing you and you need to heel, its great having a thousand friends than a few.